FRANKLIN, Tenn. (BNC) — The Wineskins YouTube channel published interviews with staff of the Fourth Avenue church Dec. 2 about a female preaching intern sharing the pulpit with minister Patrick Mead. The church is in the greater Nashville area.

The video provoked a number of reactions by area saints. The videographer and post-producer was identified as Jeremy McKeel of McKeel Video Productions, Murray, Ky. The video is apparently the first in the Wineskins channel.

Adam Faughn, minister of the Lebanon Road congregation in Hermitage, Tenn., wrote a lengthy open letter to the Fourth Ave. congregation. He stated,

Your preacher has tried to take the easy way out. Sadly, he has taken a clear command and stated that it was nothing more than cultural. The line of thinking goes that Paul only meant this teaching for that ancient time and culture. He even states that there are only two passages that talk about this particular concept, and, should we believe that Paul meant it for anything beyond “Corinth and Ephesus,” we are stating that the apostle was “trying to undue [sic] the rest of Scripture.”

So, I guess God has to say it, what, at least three times to make a command binding? Or He had to have Paul’s teaching be corroborated by Jesus to make it binding? Such is the thinking.

The Fourth Ave. church’s action is having repercussions in many places. Jon Mitchell, a gospel preacher in Duncan S.C., responded to many of the affirmations of the video.

It was Jesus, not Paul, who ultimately decreed that women should not preach in church to men in the church.  So if you have a problem with this, take it up with Jesus.  Personally, I don’t want to take it up with Jesus.  You see, Jesus died an agonizing, humiliating death on the cross which he did not deserve, and he did that so that you and I could go to heaven rather than burn in hell like we deserve because of our sins.  That is far more important than our tender sensibilities being miffed because his commands concerning women preaching to men are not politically or socially correct.

Do you truly love Jesus and God?  That’s a claim that’s easy to make with great sincerity.  This young lady made it, and I’m glad she did.  However, here’s what Jesus says about loving him.

If you love me, you will keep my commandments. John 14:15

Such divisive practices instituted by progressive churches have prompted faithful brethren to respond firmly with New Testament teachings and reaffirm the model presented by the apostles and prophets who were inspired by the Holy Spirit, as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Randal and his wife Vicki have lived and worked in Brazil since Nov. 1984. They have three children, two daughters-in-law, and four grandchildren. He likes to read novels in his back-porch hammock. http://randal.us

78 thoughts on “Tennessee church puts woman in pulpit, provokes reactions

  1. This young sister in the Lord is so wrong in stepping into the pulpit, no matter what others may tell her. this is not of God, our lord Jesus Christ or any new testament writer. Just goes to show you that no matter what people will do what they want to do.

  2. This sounds like some of the departures of The Hills Church (formerly Richland Hills Church of Christ), and Legacy Church of Christ is following not far behind with their elder-approved hand clapping in accompaniment with their singing. I was rebuked for opposing instruments of music (in an article I wrote for publication in the Gospel Advocate) and for denouncing the document signed by all their elders authorizing hand-clapping as accompaniment to their singing in worship. Some members stay and tolerate but do not participate; others have left. Their own charter does not allow for making any doctrinal stipulations about worship different from the New Testaments, but they have violated their own charter. I was disciplined by them for calling attention to such unbiblical practices, and have been branded as “Divisive.” By insisting on following the authority of Christ, I am in good company. Jesus and His apostles and the restoration leaders were all ‘divisive’. Ask for my treatise on this: “Divisive: Yes We Confess It.”

  3. It seems that we should keep our preachers away form Bible colleges, as they come into the ministry determined to prove their lack of honour of God’s word.

    1. Afraid I can’t agree with you there, Mr. Hodge. As a graduate of three different schools myself, I would join with many of my colleagues to say that the number of preachers who have graduated from “Bible Colleges” and are still sound on matters of doctrine is strong. It is wrong to judge the whole by the few.

    2. Pete,

      It seems you shouldn’t lump everyone together. I know plenty of excellent graduates from Bible Colleges who are very sound in the faith. At the same time, I also know plenty who aren’t. I can also say the same thing about preaching schools – the point: “by their fruit you will recognize them.” – don’t lump everyone together – “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”

    3. I have known too many great dedicated men of God who graduated from Bible colleges with outstanding Biblical knowledge for this to be a fair statement to me. I have also known a few from short term Bible schools who became great ministers, but also I have known several from these schools whose limited knowledge and swollen heads caused misery for churches.

      We have some Bible colleges that are doing a great job in teaching the Bible.

    4. Pete, not far behind you on this one. For those who would disagree with Pete’s evaluation, name five sound colleges among us?

    5. There is no such thing as too much education. If a person comes out of seminary with different views than when he entered either he has misapplied his education or his views were wrong at the begining.Too often we aren’t wiling to admit that what we have been teaching for years is wrong.

  4. So, is the thought that Paul’s teachings were merely suggestions? IMO the Holy Spirit did not offer suggestions. No big letters after my name, so I thought that up on my own.

  5. She is a lovely, charismatic, articulate, and intelligent young lady. She has a great talent, and she should use it … but not in the assembly!! She could speak at ladies’ days, sessions for women at lectureships, teach ladies and girls in Bible classes. There are lots of things she could do to use her talent in Scriptural ways. Wresting the Scriptures to suit yourself is rebellion against God. In 1 Samuel 15:22-23, after Saul had made excuses for taking the spoils of the Amalekites – saying the animals would be sacrificed unto the Lord, certainly a good reason – Samuel said,

    “Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to harken than the fat of rams.
    “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as and idolatry. because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.”

    I grew up not far from Franklin, TN, and 40 years ago, the 4th Avenue congregation had the reputation of being a strong, sound congregation. Sadly, now they should change their name. Probably will soon.

    1. Janice – I wish there was someone like you to speak to this young woman. Perhaps someone close to her can share the same thing. Amen to your comments!

  6. It is a very sad thing to see another congregation of the Lord’s body starting to dissolve. Satan is trying his best to take as many souls to hell with him and unfortunately he is doing a great job. I do not comprehend what is so difficult about the following Scripture for anyone to understand that this is a commandment from our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ the Son of God the Father. 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. :34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. :35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. :36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? :37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. I do pray that this congregation straightens up and repents of their sin against God and becomes a good member of the body of Christ.

    1. One area that has a direct influence to the role of women is her place in the secular world. One lady ask the question, “How is it I can be the CEO of the largest company in the world or President of the United States or even the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court but can’t teach a Bible class where I attend church that has men in the class?” What this question brings to our attention is that while there are lessons and sermons a dime a dozen on the role of the woman in the home or in the church there is almost nothing about her role in the secular world. The late Jane McWhorter in her book “She Hath Done What She Could” wrote “Apparently some women feel that God has restricted woman’s authority only in the church and that she is free to assume as much power as she desires in the business world. The admonitions of Paul in I Timothy 2:11-12 extend to all phases of a woman’s life.” (p.12) We know that man is the head of the woman, thus the head of the home, and this includes all homes whether Chritian or not That being the case where is the authority for a woman to be over a man in any area of life?

      1. Not true. The restriction on woman only applies within a Christian setting, between Christians and not between Christians and heathen.
        The unsaved spiritually dead men of the secular world are not brethren, one cannot give them the same distinction as the brothers and forbid a Christian woman authority over the spiritually dead heathen men.
        We see quite clearly in the Bible that Apollo was taught by women before he became a follower of Christ.

        PS. What did you expect would happen when head coverings were discarded? The same arguments used there to discard head coverings (cultural bias of Paul) will be used here to permit women pastors and used again later to permit homosexual marriages.

        Either all scripture is God breathed and applicable, or none of it is.

        1. What about a unbelieving spouse? For instance a female believer & male unbeliever. The male though with no moral perspective pertaining to serving Christ, the wife must be in submission to the husband, because her obedience could be the very thing that saves that man or in vice versa. So that being said, wheat & tares are allowed & do grow together until the harvest that is.

  7. The statement “What the Bible does is tells me about Jesus; and I don’t read Jesus through Paul. I read Paul through Jesus.” is doublespeak and false doctrine. Paul wrote “For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:12, NKJV) The statement made is a ploy that has been used by others to ignore the writings of Paul, at least the ones they do not like, so they can follow their own designs and desires. It is false doctrine. Do NOT allow yourself to be deceived by such!

    1. Patrick keeps saying he will not discuss nor debate the issue with anyone. If you are not willing to debate your conviction, then you are not convicted. Watch his body language in the video. When he talks about the doctrine side of the issue, he closes his eyes or looks away. That speaks of not believing what you are saying. Paul withstood Peter Face to Face !!! He constantly talks about how humble he is, yet makes it all about him. They are saying the Spirit is moving. Well, one of two things are true, the Spirit is moving, or Satan is having a field day with the Body !!!!

        1. Brother Ivy, is this the same Patrick Mead who worked with the Eastside church in Colorado Springs and “enlightened” them on many things?

  8. It is pretty obvious that this denominational congregation is determined to conduct their services however they want to. (itching ears?)
    It would take more courage than they can probably muster to repent and turn back to the truth. Isn’t that true for individuals, as well as congregations. For me to confess some grievous public sin, admitting that I was wrong and asking forgiveness, sometimes requires more courage than I can find.
    I imagine that this congregation is probably either 1. enjoying all the attention and is bullheadedly determined to pervert the pulpit or 2. they are in so deep that they do not see a graceful way out, short of humble embarrassing repentance.
    Do they not see that they are bringing “reproach on The church”.
    I wonder what Jesus would tell them, if He were to include them in the churches written to in Revelation 2 & 3?
    I have personally witnessed some congregation who seem to go “right up to the edge of the cliff” to make their worship service “more entertaining” to compete with the world, and some that have taken a nose-dive into the pit.
    What I love about the Scripture is that I DO NOT HAVE TO REINVENT THE WHEEL. God has set this up, but it seems that we sometimes know better.
    In my opinion, they should either repent and clean-up their act……or seriously, they SHOULD change their name. They sound like a good candidate to be the next “Community Church”.
    So what now? As faithful Bible believing, God fearing Christians, we should not give up on them, just as we do not give up on personal family members or friends who are lost. We should pray for them and hope they see the folly of their ways.

    1. What’s in a name? How would changing from one biblical name for the church to another have anything to do with the rightness or wrongness of having a female preaching intern? To cling to the name “Church of Christ” as the bastion of correct doctrine and practice is just as denominational anything being discussed here.

      1. Amen, Russ, Twenty Five years ago there were 17 different doctrines and practices among the assembles identifying themselves as churches of Christ in New Mexico alone. The name is now synonymous with variety. Hmm reminds one of the assemblies in Revelation.

  9. I have a simple question: Was there no one on the faculty at Lipscomb that warned this young lady of the firestorm she would cause? It is wrong in its contempt for scriptural boundaries, and it is an offense to the unity of the church. As for Mr. Mead’s lack of respect for the apostle Paul’s authority, Paul made it plain in 1 Cor. 14 that what he was writing would be acknowledged by the spiritual ones as commandments of God.

    1. Ken, Dr Randy Lowry is loving every minute of this. I was involved in a church plant seven years ago and we were restoring erring Christians on a weekly bases. Dr. Lowry and his wife got involved and now they have changed their name, allow women to participate in leading the worship service. When the Elders made the decision to start allowing women and talking about the name change, I resigned from the pulpit and had to leave.

  10. Lauren, your precious young soul is being deceived by the Evil One. It’s not “God leading” you at all. God warns us so many times “not to be deceived.” And the only way to keep from being deceived and being led by our “emotions” is to stick to the Word. I didn’t grow up in the church, and the language you use and the “feelings” you’re referencing as being from God sound just like those in the denominational world. Lauren, I hope you read this.

    Some people think that in 1 Timothy Paul was talking about “customs” and “cultures” of that day in reference to women’s role; however, Paul was clear when he was issuing his opinion verses a command. For example, look what he wrote in 1 Corinthians 7:6, “But this I say by way of concession, not of command.” He does it again in verse 10 and 12 in that same passage. He didn’t use that phrasing in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 in reference to women’s role. If anything, it’s clear that it’s a command because later in that SAME TEXT he says in 3:15, “but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.” This is proof that women’s role is not some “custom” or “cultural” issue. It’s about how we are to conduct ourselves in the church.

    We need to read on and not stop at chapter breaks.

    Also, remember that Jesus Himself gave authority to the apostles. In John 14:26 Jesus says the Holy Spirit would teach the apostles everything and bring to remembrance everything Jesus taught. In John 16:13, Jesus says the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles into ALL truth. “All” doesn’t leave anything out.

    Jude 3 makes it clear that we’re not to expect any “new revelations” since the faith was “once and for all delivered.” Women now “teaching and having authority over men” is not a new revelation. It’s disobedience. And as one brother above quoted from the text in John 14:15, Jesus says, “If you love Me, you will keep my commandments.” He repeats this at least three times in the following chapter of John, which should tell us how important it is to obey Him. Obedience isn’t a “feeling.” We don’t base “obedience” on a feeling. It’s an “action.”

    We simply need to submit to our heavenly Father and obey His will, whether we like it or not. I didn’t always like having to obey my parents, but they had my best will in mind. God is no different. We can do amazing things for God and in Christ’s name (as they did in Matthew 7), but if we’re not acting according to “His will” it means nothing.

    Matthew 7:21-27 (emphasis is mine):

    Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES THE WILL of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

    24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and ACTS on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the ROCK. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and DOES NOT ACT on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and GREAT WAS ITS FALL.”

    I fear this may sound harsh, but I’m desperate for your soul. And you should be too.

    Blessings,

    Sandi

    P.S. If you wish to contact me, here’s my email: sandirog DOT gmail DOT com.

  11. There is only one god who would tell someone to do something contrary to the one true God’s will as found in His Word. He has been doing that since Adam and Eve.

  12. It is sadden that some of our preacher will once again violate the teaching of our master, Jesus Christ by using woman to preach. May God help us fight the battle of un scriptual practices. May God help them to repent. Churches of Christ in Africa will suffer from this as it starts in the USA.God! Please help our people to repent

  13. I took the time to look at this video. It is obvious to me that hey have totally disregarded what the scriptures teach. To suggest that it is inly two passages that teaches against this practice is rather frighteniing. How many passages do we need to teach truth. The other thing for me is that the ‘Senior Minister’ cannot recognise that whatever Paul wrote was meant for all churches and that he was speaking the commandments of the Lord. 1 Cor. 14: 36-7;4:17; 16:1 It was disappointing to see how they lauded their opinions over truth. Until we get back to Book, chapter and verse teaching and until our congregations are indoctrinated with God’s word these are many more ungodly practices will continue. To me this congregation should be marked and avoided. Rms.16:17; 2 Thess.3:6. This is the tradition that we should follow not any so called church of Christ tradition. It is what the Bible teaches that matters and should be followed.

  14. Thus saith the Lord… Regarding anyone causing ‘DIVISIONS’ within the ‘one’ church of the Bible: “I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought” (1 Cor, 1:10). Just as the introduction of instruments in worship has caused GREAT DIVISION within the Lord’s body, the introduction of women in the pulpit will do the same, causing added division, and additional stumbling blocks to all. Question: “What GOOD is the Word of God, the Bible, if we fail to follow and obey what it says and fail to follow its direction and patterns?” ….Be with us Lord, as [New Testament Church of Christ] faithful brothers and sisters in Christ, as not being found guilty, of compromising your written Word, as we do our best to stay ‘inside’ of scripture.

  15. I find it very encouraging to read the responses based in scripture. This deviation from the New Testament model is obvious to most of us and not a surprise to most of us. My concern is what do we as THE Body of Christ do about this and other issues going forward? Many times we’ve been too silent (homosexual agenda, etc) and satan has gained ground. We don’t want to be side tracked about the Bible colleges conversation. We do need to have a more active presence in our society regarding issues of faith & doctrine. Matthew chapters 5-7, Jesus teaches us a lot about the rules of personal character, conduct and social interaction. In Matthew 5 specifically He tells us that we are the salt of the earth, the light of the world. How does our light shine in these dark times? The world will see the video and many will be misled by it. She is articulate, charming, and convincing. What series of actions can we take from here?

  16. JESUS: (Mt 15:8-9) ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'” Do I need to say more?

  17. This is what happens when we think our feelings are the truth ,,,,She feels God is saying yes to her preaching ,,,,,,satan has deceived her ,,,,and the leaders of the church are weak ,,,,They are looking at her beauty , charm , and charisma ,,,,,

  18. Perhaps there is more to be interpreted through scripture than what has always been taught. It is not with careless disregard for scripture that this has come about but through lengthy studying of scripture and prayer. It may not be what you interpret but who is to say you are right and they/she is wrong? And when have we ever been called to be so hateful to our brothers and sister in Christ? This should start discussions and deeper reading and studying of the Word, not a stoning of those who interpret differently. And how can we ever go into the world and make disciples when we are treating each other this way? Who would want to be in a family that casts stones at their own?

    1. You make it sound as if no one can be sure of anything, as if truth cannot be ascertained.
      “Who is to say you are right and they/she is wrong”?
      God is to say – and He has said.
      Either we can know the truth or we cannot know the truth.
      The apostle Paul warns against those who interpret it differently (Gal. 1).
      It is not being “hateful” to take a stand for the truth and to expose, reprove and rebuke the who err from the truth – we simply speak the truth, in love.

    2. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 1 Peter 1:20-21

      1. Very well stated. We ALL must study & continue to study, to seek after the scriptural truth and not your interpretation or my interpretation, but God’s. God’s interpretation is the one and only interpretation we are to follow.

    3. Al, I do not base any of my decisions in regard to my soul on who may be right and who may be wrong but on what the Bible says is right. Your reasoning could be used to conclude that all Christian groups are approved by God and in harmony with the scriptures.

      1. I believe Al is simply saying that what we have always believed may be wrong and we need to study with an open mind. None of us is perfect and just because we have always heard a doctrine taught a certain way does not mean it is correct. We must continually search the scriptures using the most recent scholarship to find the truth. And we should never speak as harshly as some of the people commenting here have.

        1. It is unfortunate that many have died down through the centuries who did not have the “most recent scholarship” to
          determine “truth.” Does this mean they are condemned?

          To me, truth is knowable, immutable, inalterable, and eternal in any century regardless of when it is studied. God’s revelation has not just become knowable because of “recent scholarship.”

          All of the above comments are shared with love.

  19. In the video , the “Minister of Administration”(?) Nancy Baughman says, “We want to be a body of unity and embrace differences” (?!?) Welcome to the age of relevance and tolerance and diversity. Make it sound like sexism or racism or intolerance if someone points out scriptural error.

      1. Everything is “awesome”. Everything is “cool” when you’re part of the t.. um , tribe.

  20. She claims God directed her to preach? I guess God goes against His own words written in 1 Timothy 2:11-13 that commands women not to be teachers over men. The only place this woman is authorized by God to preach is in the presence of only women… Remember the apostle Paul was deceived by his own heart too. I am afraid that is what is happening to this woman. Never good to be led by your own heart. This is where evil comes from (Matt. 15:19).

      1. “So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.” (Acts 18:26)

        The situation you’re referring to was a private setting; not the public worship services of the church.

        1. In I Timothy 2:12 Paul does not add a qualifier that says a woman should not teach a man in public, he just says she should not teach a man.Nothing there refers to a “public worship service of the church”, a concept that is seldom addressed in scripture. If we take the verse literally then a woman could never teach a man in any setting and that would mean that Priscilla sinned. The other option is to say that Paul’s instruction did not apply to all people in all places.

          1. Your interpretation causes her to sin, not her deed; much in the same way that a misinterpretation of Acts 16:31 causes people to teach that “all” a person has to do to be saved is believe in Jesus while ignoring what the rest of the scriptures say on the subject. 1 Timothy 2:8 begins discussing the topic in relation to public situations – not private ones. Apollos was “taken aside” and taught. I would hope that you could see the difference between the two.

            So again, the situation involving Priscilla dealt with private instruction and not the public worship services of the church, so the point that you’re trying to make has nothing to do with the situation that the article is concerned with which blatantly contradicts an apostolic instruction concerning the church’s public worship services (1 Corinthians 14:31-38). Note that 14:33 says that these worship instructions were to be followed in “all the churches of the saints” and not Corinth alone as if it were only a cultural issue.

  21. This makes me so very sad. I continue to pray for elders, that they will stay true and strong in the faith delivered once and for all. I am not “throwing stones” when I note that error is being taught and practiced. I am following the admonition for Christians to mark those who err. I feel no hate toward these mistaken people. Just sadness.

  22. Maybe my reaction is not surprising at all. I am in the other extreme of the real subject. I am a preacher who has the curse, if you let me call it that way for the illustration. I love to preach to the Hispanic population, because Spanish is my native language. But in my 12 years of my life in Christ, I never felt supported by the brotherhood, because I am not associated with any college or school. I love Jesus to the point to study the scriptures every day, at least 3 hours for the last 10 years, and I decided to not go to the right or the left. Just to do Gods will. There is the key, right there. If you can really see the problem you will understand why this young lady is preaching in the pulpit. This action does not surprised me at all. It was a matter of time. And you wonder why members leave their congregations. We are not supposed to preach what we want to! we preach what we need to. NO, is not right for a lady step in a place were she does not belong. But this time when my feelings are more important than the word of God is arisen, we probably are going to see more wonders.
    In Brotherly love.
    Alejandro Del Zotto

    1. My brother, I do hope you will be forgiving toward brethren who have, seemingly, pushed you to the wayside because you are not affiliated with some biblical institution. This is an unfortunate position that some have taken and probably do not even realize the disappointment they are causing to those who are not a “product” of some school. I often see those advertising, for preachers with “letters” after their names, and wonder if Paul or Peter or Timothy would have been rejected by them. I do understand the need, in certain situations, for someone with “credentials” but I do hope that we, as a church family, do not get to the point that good, sound, dedicated preachers are not being used in the kingdom because they have not attended a school or college. God doesn’t make it a requirement so why should we?

  23. Can anybody who is a Christian living close to them, try to engage the leadership in any form of study to see if there is the possibility of making a scriptural impact on their decision so far? won’t it be good to see if the minister can agree to a debate on the issue and have his Biblical understanding put forward for through open- minded testing as Paul would say. Test the Spirits.? I believe that such moves can positively bring the needed result here.

    They use to say, to err is human but to forgive is divine. Lets try the Aquilla and Priscillia approach in dealing with evangelist Apollos.

  24. I just wish someone responding to the situation would actually address some of the key arguments Mead and others have presented. For example, speaking of women teaching and preaching in the NT, we have Priscilla teaching Apollos the Gospel, the daughters of Philip, the Joel prophesy fulfilled in Acts 2 and women praying and prophesying in the Corinthian church. That’s just a few to consider. There are more including Phoebe, the only named deacon and Junia the notable apostle. There is more that could be pointed out but that is a start.

    Then of course there is the cultural context at Ephesus to consider, as this article goes into: http://stonedcampbelldisciple.com/2013/02/20/first-timothy-2-8-15-the-silencing-of-women-in-worship/

    I’m sure this has all been addressed somewhere, but I’ve been following this issue over the past few days and so far have not read one from those opposing the matter address any of these. Just a bunch of name calling and repeating of the same few proof texts while ignoring both cultural context and many other passages.

    1. Hello JD,

      Quick rundown:

      Priscilla – private setting, not public worship

      Women prophesying – no indication that it was being done in public worship, apostolic instruction shows quite the opposite (1 Corinthians 14:34-38)

      Pheobe – just because the word servant is used this does not necessitate fulfilling the office of a deacon, presiding over the church’s worship services, or having any authority over men in the church (Acts 6:2; Romans 12:7, 13:4-6, 15:25; 1 Corinthians 3:5; 2 Corinthians 9:1; 2 Corinthians 11:15; Hebrews 6:10, etc.)

      Junia – just because the word apostle is used doesn’t mean it’s being used in the apostolic sense. Barnabas was an “apostle” (in the sense of being “sent”) but he was not of the 12 (Acts 14:14)

      Culture does count, and culture does not have to be contrary to God’s commandment, but when it is (whether it pertains to morality, worship, family life, or other matters of the faith) culture does not override the commandment and individual Christians are expected to conform to the culture that drives the kingdom of God regardless of the culture that they were raised in or are currently living in (1 Corinthians 9:21, 11:13-16 (note this has no bearing or support in chapter 14’s instruction regarding women and public worship); 14:34, 37, 1 Timothy 3:15; Titus 1:5, 11-14)

      1. Sorry, forgot to mention just a couple more things.

        My point about the verses with the Pheobe reply is to show that all Christians are expected to be a “deacon/servant” in one sense or another, but that this situation is different from the office of a deacon.

        Also, Junia is in no way being referred to as an apostle in the “proper” sense. The text states that the apostles knew of her and her situation as the vast, vast, vast majority of reputable Bible translations show.

        1. Thank you. There’s a lot more ambiguity there than you’re comments let on, but I appreciate very much your willingness to at least address the points.

  25. 1 Timothy 2:11-12 is part of what Paul wrote to Timothy for the expressed purpose of commanding how one should conduct themselves in the church (1 Tim. 3:14-15). Thus, the prohibition against women teaching/exercising authority over men applies in the church, ekklesia, wherever Christians assemble to worship (cf. 2:8; Matt. 18:20). Thus, Priscilla teaching Apollos privately – and together with her husband, remember; it was a joint effort, and who’s to say he didn’t take the lead in teaching Apollos? – does not contradict 1 Tim. 2:11-12.

    Neither does Philip’s daughters prophesying or the women prophesying in 1 Cor. 11, because it’s an assumption to think that they did so in the church in the presence of men. On the contrary, who’s to say that they didn’t do so among their fellow women in the church per Titus 2:3-5, or to children, or to the lost outside the church?

    Concerning Phoebe, “deaconess” is diakonia in the Greek, translated “deacon” in 1 Tim. 3:8-13 and “servant” in Rom. 13:4 referring to governmental authorities. Question: if Phoebe HAD to have been in the office of deacon because diakonia was used to describe her, then are governmental authorities likewise in the office of deacon by default? Or are they simply “servants of God” because common sense says they don’t meet the qualifications of the office of deacon laid out in Timothy? In like manner, Phoebe is simply called a “servant”, not a deaconness per the KJV mistranslation, because she doesn’t meet the qualifications of the office, namely, she’s not the husband of one wife. Also, she would not be in the office since deacons have a certain degree of authority in the church and women are not to exercise authority in the church per 1 Tim. 2:11-12.

    1. If I Tim 2:11-12 apply only to formal worship assemblies does that mean 8-9 only apply to the worship assembly also. That is, are men only to pray in church and are women only required to dress modestly while in church? Does the “worship assembly only” restriction mean that women may teach men in Sunday School? How does Wednesday night Bible study fit into this? It seems as though we are making restrictive qualifications to fit our long-held traditions when we need to start looking at the scriptures without our mid 20th century blinders on.

      1. The literal definitions of lasciviousness and licentiousness , sins which are generally condemned throughout the Christian’s life, include the condemnation of immodesty. That’s why it’s a sin for a woman to be immodest anywhere, anytime. 1 Timothy 3:14-15 specifically says that what Paul is writing about in 1 Timothy, including 2:8-12, is instruction on how to act in the church, the church being anywhere and anytime Christians assemble together.

        Since Col. 4:2 is directed to the whole church, 1 Cor. 11:5 talks of women praying, and 1 Tim. 2:12 condemns women exercising authority over men in the church, 1 Tim. 2:8 is referring to men LEADING prayer in the church.

        Christians assemble together for the Bible classes. Thus, women are not to teach men. They can teach other women (Tit. 2:3-5) and children.

        Since absolutely nothing in the NT even hints at these commands being temporary or cultural in nature, what I’m bringing out from the Bible is not looking at this through 20th century blinders on. It’s taking it for what it says, simple as that. On the contrary, modern society is very permissive and post-modernistic in nature. Thus, truly looking at this with 20th century blinders on is dismissing it as irrelevant, rather than choosing to obey it.

  26. So sad. I have been witness to the Church slowly degrading to the point it is today. It’s like termites eating at the dwelling where you live. At first you may not even notice that there is a problem, and things seem fine. The termites just keep on eating away, but soon the realization kicks in that something is wrong. Maybe it is some small thing that is different from the Word of God, and is accepted as truth. Some say let us ignore this and choose our battles. Soon the damage is evident. We as members of the Lord’s Church have a choice to make. We can stop the decay or ignore it as many have done and suffer the consequences of a body of Christ that will not be recognizable in the future as some have become already. Such as this young lady who has many options to use her talents that do not violate the Word of God. The foundation was laid by Christ and his inspired apostles in the Word of God. We as true Christians cannot let the foundation of the the Church be slowly be eaten away by false doctrine. Remember, where there is a few termites there are always many. You can only stop the decay by getting back to basics.

  27. What’s happening now with our brethren?. Is this a fullfilment of what the scriptures said that some will depart from the fatih?. Or is this a kind of influence from the denominational invironment that our brethren are exposed to and are carried away by all the opinions and emotions that it turned out to be a doctrinal problem. I hope and pray to God that in the coming years, no one or someone will put women to the office of an elders(God forbid !)

    What happened inTennessee area is a BIG warning for us brethren, that we have to be as wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove. Let us remember what the wise King Solomon said in Prov. 14:12: “There is a way that seems right for a man. but the end thereof is destrucions Let us not follow those who are leading us to destruction, but rather follow the right Path, the path of righteousness. That Path or Way is no other than our Lord Jesus Christ. (John 14:6.}

  28. New Living Translation
    Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

  29. check out their churches “our beliefs”page on their website…seems like theres a database error on the page. Ironic.

  30. The problem is a lot deeper than the problem of women preaching. The real problem (and warning) is when the door is opened just enough for the “salesman” (Satan) to stick his foot into it. (The old salesman’s trick of placing your foot in the doorway to prevent it from closing.) ANY err from the scriptures, no matter how small, is WRONG. So, let me ask one question for everyone to think about and KEEP in mind, === “How far does a person (or church, etc.) have to step over the edge of a cliff before they fall?”

  31. I think what stood out to me most about the path he took is the place he ended up. In the video he said, “Paul has to take a seat alongside of us.” So now we are on the same level of Paul. I grew up at the East Allen County church of Christ, In New Haven In. I heard Patrick when I was young and am so saddened by this. Interestingly enough this video has been moved to privet. This happened right after a posted on his facebook page the following: I am deeply disturbed by Patrick’s comment Paul is a fellow student with us: As if Paul, who met with Jesus, and wrote so much by the Spirit of God, and was God’s chosen witness to the Gentiles and kings now needs to take a seat alongside of us. (Or really behind us) Understanding Paul through Jesus yes, but understanding Paul, through another preacher explaining Paul, through Jesus, no! Shortly after this the video was removed from his Facebook, the video it self was moved to privet and I was unfriended of facebook. Oh well at least Jesus is still my friend!

  32. While a congregation has the freedom to do as it desires, it does not have the right to do so. Right has to do with divine authority. No congregation has the right to do anything that is not authorized by New Testament teaching. The congregation is wrong in placing a woman in a position she is not authorized to serve in. The problem here is that this congregation is acting by a worldly standard rather than the Divine standard, the Bible.

    William

  33. I’ve always told people that there’s a lot of wisdom from God in commanding women not to speak in the assemblies, if for no other reason but perhaps this… and it was pointed out to me by none other than a Baptist preacher I was listening to on the radio one day. He was lamenting how women were speaking from their pulpits dressed immodestly and it’s a big distraction. I thought, wow, perhaps that’s why God only wants men to lead in front.

    I’ve seen female preachers or ones singing in their choirs on tv showing way too much skin. They are drawing an audience in order to entertain. It’s a mockery and God shall not be mocked.

  34. This is another example why(according to the Lord’s grand design) we have no earthly headquarters. If one goes down the path of apostacy it doesn’t take all with it. Daily we see other congregations lead into darkness by denominational mentality. Stay the narrow path is my word to those who walk according to II Timothy 3:16

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